Curse

Life Bringing · Apr 07, 2010, 08:11 PM // 20:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by 9tails

While in general I find this thread a fascinating look into how people build their H/H groups, I have to ask... what areas are you guys doing where the henchies are so good that it's worth sacrificing a hero slot for the priviledge of bringing the third and fourth best non-healer henchies? I can't imagine doing that almost anywhere in Prophecies, where the henchies are almost uniformly terrible. Even in NF and GWEN, where you get stronger henchies such as Herta, Zho, or Sogolon, I'm not sure that I'm that excited about swapping out one of my SoS or MM/MB heroes for an ER Vekk in order to... what? Replace Mhenlo and Khim/Lina with Odurra, Lo Sha, or Gheraz? I'm just not feeling the love.

You don't need ER...SoS+SoGM+AoTL on heroes can steamroll almost every area of the game with only 1 healer hench. The point is to maximize damage and support on your heroes to the point where 1 hench can keep the entire party alive with ease.

Daesu · Apr 08, 2010, 03:03 PM // 15:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Life Bringing

You don't need ER...SoS+SoGM+AoTL on heroes can steamroll almost every area of the game with only 1 healer hench. The point is to maximize damage and support on your heroes to the point where 1 hench can keep the entire party alive with ease.

Those builds that have 1 healer hench usually bring some red barring themselves and have prots on their heroes. I usually bring just 1 healer hench too.

From Jeydra's screenshot, you can see Razah bringing Spirit Light and PwK. Also even though an ER wasn't used, he brought the 2 essential prots, PS and Aegis.

@Zodiac Meteor: If you bring a ST rit, that is like bringing an ER, and in some ways that is a more powerful protector than an ER.

I think the point is that an ER is not needed when you can bring an offensive spirit spammer instead, and dump PS+Aegis on the MM. If you can micro PS when needed, it should not be too problematic.

These are the problems I find with the build. He is using the heroes with a caster, so there is not as much of a need for condition removal. If you use this with a physical, it is better to switch out Spirit Light for MB&S. I am also not sure how well this build would work in hex heavy areas, especially with a physical that needs to run ahead, hench healers do not have hex removal in some campaigns/areas and they typically run into energy problems when trying to heal through hexes.

I think part of the reason why the build works well enough for him is that he adapted his heroes to his caster. If it is a physical, then it needs more supportive skills.

Chthon · Apr 09, 2010, 02:21 AM // 02:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Life Bringing

Sousuke?

Check the hench Options in Twin Serpent lakes... I bet you can figure out why I decided to use a hero for my one healer.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

I don't get it ...

How can a Tyrian area be so hard to VQ?

I found myself asking the same question. As best I can tell, it's really just an issue of the healer getting PBlocked early or not. Those mobs don't do a ton of damage, but they do enough that they're going to nickle and dime and degen you to death if you don't have any redbarup. One or two early PBlocks and you're basically doing a zero-healer backline instead of a one-healer backline. That's why I said I really wanted a second healer, so that I could survive those instances. (I also could have actually bothered to plan for the zone before heading out...)

I'm also going to hazard a guess that you survived because (1) your team sounds like it had more casters to spread the risk of PBlock and (2) you do run some diffused healing, and I wasn't. (Well I was running DSorrow, but that doesn't function for the very first mob.)

Also, just to be clear, I don't doubt that one-healer backlines work in a lot of places (in fact, I've seen it work). I'm just pointing out one instance where it's risky at best.

Though, 9tails seems to have a point. That 3rd or 4th best offensive henchie available in 8-man zones is usually pretty darned worthless. Is it worth giving up the safety net of a second backliner for so little offensive punch?

9tails · Apr 09, 2010, 03:11 AM // 03:11

Well, it does depend on the area. I took a second look at Lo Sha and Cynn in GWEN (since I take Herta and Zho as my first two), and they don't suck. Cynn's kinda meh in HM, with all the shortcomings one expects from a fire ele, but even then she's not terrible.

On the other hand, Prophecies is a wasteland for henchies.

Daesu · Apr 09, 2010, 08:55 AM // 08:55

Another thing is the way you pull mobs as a caster. If you flag your heroes, including your MM, before pulling, then your melee minions would move forward to form a minion wall as your enemies approach. If don't flag your heroes before pulling, then you may find your MM and his minions lagging behind you, maybe even casting Death Nova. If your melee minions are in front, they take the brunt of the damage for your casters, even soaking up hexes.

For a melee physical character it is a little different, since your character would probably run forward along with your melee minions, even if you flag your heroes before pulling. This means your character is exposed to the initial brunt of the damage/hexes, along with your minions.

I think that has an impact on the amount of healing needed for a caster character versus a melee character. Depending on henchies for healing can also have varying results across campaigns/areas as mentioned above.

Jeydra · Apr 26, 2010, 06:00 PM // 18:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

I think part of the reason why the build works well enough for him is that he adapted his heroes to his caster. If it is a physical, then it needs more supportive skills.

It's probable; I personally can't imagine playing a physical without having SoH somewhere.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

I'm also going to hazard a guess that you survived because (1) your team sounds like it had more casters to spread the risk of PBlock and (2) you do run some diffused healing, and I wasn't. (Well I was running DSorrow, but that doesn't function for the very first mob.)

Also, just to be clear, I don't doubt that one-healer backlines work in a lot of places (in fact, I've seen it work). I'm just pointing out one instance where it's risky at best.

In my second try I had two healing skills total in my entire party - Spirit Light and Kaolai. Well henchmen had self-heals I believe, but that's it. So it works, although yes I did run 5 casters.

As for limitations of the build, yes I'm increasingly discovering its problems. It definitely cannot cope with AoE unless I micro a whole lot, and even then it can't cope with AoE mob after AoE mob indefinitely. For example, I went into Kathandrax a few days ago for the ZB with these same bars. I did eventually finish, but if I make one mistake / make a bad call then DP starts accumulating and the next fight gets harder and harder and harder. I think for simpler play if one expects to face killing AoE (RoJ, Searing Flames, Churning Earth / Eruption, etc) then bring two Monks just as a safety net. But otherwise there's nothing to miss by using an extra damage dealer.

Some henchmen are terrible, yes. These few days I've been busy maxing my Kurzick title and while vanquishing, there really aren't good henchmen. Cynn is an obvious choice and I also used Aidan, but the rest just don't cut it. Lingering Curse, Icy Veins, Psychic Instability (!!) - all these elites don't deal much damage. Nonetheless, considering I can usually vanquish everything without wiping (only chance of wiping is against Elementalist bosses that I neglect to aggro properly), I don't see why not.

PS: I sure am flattered people are copying my builds

Myotheraccount · Apr 26, 2010, 11:41 PM // 23:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

As for limitations of the build, yes I'm increasingly discovering its problems. It definitely cannot cope with AoE unless I micro a whole lot, and even then it can't cope with AoE mob after AoE mob indefinitely. For example, I went into Kathandrax a few days ago for the ZB with these same bars. I did eventually finish, but if I make one mistake / make a bad call then DP starts accumulating and the next fight gets harder and harder and harder. I think for simpler play if one expects to face killing AoE (RoJ, Searing Flames, Churning Earth / Eruption, etc) then bring two Monks just as a safety net. But otherwise there's nothing to miss by using an extra damage dealer.

True story.

But, not that it's hard to micro spiritway and the results you get are amazing. Not really a biggie considering you have to micro other cookie-cutters as well like Discord or Necroway.

Although I must admit that spirits are more reislient than I thought. I ran Tanhakai Temple HM with this build, just for the lulz and my spirits survived the aoe spam pretty well. I did micro a lot though.

NocturnalLunacy · Jul 17, 2010, 10:12 AM // 10:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by mage767

I don't think you need 2 monks anyway if you have 2 spirit spammers in the team.

Anyway, most people don't run the spirit team. So, I am not sure what this thread is about...is that spirits are over-powered and should be used in PvE HM? If so, then there is really nothing new. With patience and good pulling tactics, anything is doable with spirits.

The idea is to roll through VQes super fast and slowing it down by setting up spirits and aggroing is simply not worth it. If I got my first god in XXX hours, I should be able to do the second in half that time because I know ow to do it quicker!

But the screenshot of Jeydra should motivate those wanting to do Duncan HM by themselves.

What? So who made the rule that the VQs had to be done super fast? When I vQ I take my time instead of running head-long into a wipe unless it's an area that you are rewarded for the speed. As far as using spirits, I use 2 spirit spammers and a monk and that's usually it. Every once in a while depending on the area I'll make Xandra a mm. I really don't think that spirits are overpowered. It seems that way cuz with SoS and a few other spirits you get 6+ spirits and that's alot of damage. But it's no diff than an ele with massive AoE. The damage is just inflicted a diff way. As much as you say that spirits and minions are overpowered, it makes me think you are the type to complain to Anet causing them to nerf Rits and Necros like they have to so many other profs and skills to the point that the skill is useless.

syphonus · Jul 19, 2010, 08:11 PM // 20:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by NocturnalLunacy

What? So who made the rule that the VQs had to be done super fast? When I vQ I take my time instead of running head-long into a wipe unless it's an area that you are rewarded for the speed.

There's no rule. The only person who benefits from it is you. Some people like to do it faster.

And I think Jeydra's point was, more time setting up spirits=> less time fighting, so it evens out to a solid /age.

Malician · Jul 21, 2010, 11:42 PM // 23:42

Is there a guide to proper aggro techniques? My entire army explodes instantly when playing with H/H unless I ER and bond everyone.

Jeydra · Jul 22, 2010, 04:37 AM // 04:37

I'm writing one, expect it in the next couple of weeks.

@NocturnalLegacy - if you don't care about the times you take to vanquish, then pretty much all builds are viable ... as for how overpowered spirits are, you can quickly tell if you attempt to do something without using them. Individually, spirit spammers are way more powerful than any other hero build right now except the MM. Whether to call that overpowered, or to call everything else underpowered, is up to you.

The Josip · Jul 22, 2010, 11:39 AM // 11:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

I'm writing one, expect it in the next couple of weeks.

@NocturnalLegacy - if you don't care about the times you take to vanquish, then pretty much all builds are viable ... as for how overpowered spirits are, you can quickly tell if you attempt to do something without using them. Individually, spirit spammers are way more powerful than any other hero build right now except the MM. Whether to call that overpowered, or to call everything else underpowered, is up to you.

I'd actually really like to see aggro guide because I'm amazed how some claim they can within few seconds ball foes and do like that throughout the zone. I could surely use some tips because I don't waste my time on this and rangers, paragons and casters don't just move next to each other since they have no need to do so.

As for spirits, outside of SoS and Bloodsong I use, I really don't think there's much point in having one hero spec in Communing but I could be wrong. The thing is that if fights are short (and they will be when playing melee), MM's minions will reach the enemy when fight is pretty much over, and spirits will not be able to shoot enough to cause proper damage. This is just theory of course, but I really am starting to favor very mobile teams, especially since I tend to spend money on consumables.

syphonus · Jul 22, 2010, 04:02 PM // 16:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Josip

MM's minions will reach the enemy when fight is pretty much over, and spirits will not be able to shoot enough to cause proper damage. This is just theory of course, but I really am starting to favor very mobile teams, especially since I tend to spend money on consumables.

It is theory. If you flag heroes at all, minions are the only thing keeping mobs balled in front of you, rather than running straight for your backline.

kanuks · Jul 22, 2010, 04:26 PM // 16:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Josip

I'd actually really like to see aggro guide because I'm amazed how some claim they can within few seconds ball foes and do like that throughout the zone. I could surely use some tips because I don't waste my time on this and rangers, paragons and casters don't just move next to each other since they have no need to do so.

As for spirits, outside of SoS and Bloodsong I use, I really don't think there's much point in having one hero spec in Communing but I could be wrong. The thing is that if fights are short (and they will be when playing melee), MM's minions will reach the enemy when fight is pretty much over, and spirits will not be able to shoot enough to cause proper damage. This is just theory of course, but I really am starting to favor very mobile teams, especially since I tend to spend money on consumables.

Comm spirit spammer isn't that useful against mobs that dies too quick but against well balanced mobs like the slaver's dwarves or the charrs or the wik white mantle it's very powerful. The communing spirit spammer actually deals more damage than the sos/bloodsong spirit spammer. His spirits have longer recharge though. Using 2 spirit spammers in slavers is very efficient because spirits don't deal enough damage to trigger their seemingly infinite protective bond. Against these dwarves, multpiple small packets of damage >>>>>>> big packets of damage.

The Josip · Jul 22, 2010, 09:09 PM // 21:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by syphonus

It is theory. If you flag heroes at all, minions are the only thing keeping mobs balled in front of you, rather than running straight for your backline.

I was talking about situations where you kill mobs quickly, say, melee char, and you're talking about situation where you're camping every few steps and taking forever to clear the zone.

Take melee character, use speed boost, go from mob to mob and you'll see what I mean.

If you're not going fast (which means non high damage melee char), or defend, I agree minions are great.

Quote:

Originally Posted by kanuks

Comm spirit spammer isn't that useful against mobs that dies too quick but against well balanced mobs like the slaver's dwarves or the charrs or the wik white mantle it's very powerful.

Unless they die quickly too

Quote:

Using 2 spirit spammers in slavers is very efficient because spirits don't deal enough damage to trigger their seemingly infinite protective bond. Against these dwarves, multpiple small packets of damage >>>>>>> big packets of damage.

I suppose it depends on the team build. Last time I was in Slavers I was doing huge pockets of damage with a scythe and didn't notice any protective bonds and such. Maybe because I use Psychic Instability so they didn't have chance to cast much; I really don't know.

kanuks · Jul 22, 2010, 09:21 PM // 21:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Josip

Unless they die quickly too

Please enlighten me of your incredible times for every slavers dungeon HM with h/h without cons. You better kill very fast to say that spirits aren't useful there. Are you telling me that you never flag heroes and just run through the dungeon?

syphonus · Jul 22, 2010, 10:34 PM // 22:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Josip

I was talking about situations where you kill mobs quickly, say, melee char, and you're talking about situation where you're camping every few steps and taking forever to clear the zone.

Take melee character, use speed boost, go from mob to mob and you'll see what I mean.

If you're not going fast (which means non high damage melee char), or defend, I agree minions are great.

I am talking exactly about high-damage melee characters. There are places where no matter what team setup you are running, or how good you are, you will get raped if you charge in without flagging or micro. Bringing consets just encourages laziness, both in team building and in gameplay.

Jeydra · Jul 23, 2010, 07:38 AM // 07:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Josip

I'd actually really like to see aggro guide because I'm amazed how some claim they can within few seconds ball foes and do like that throughout the zone. I could surely use some tips because I don't waste my time on this and rangers, paragons and casters don't just move next to each other since they have no need to do so.

As for spirits, outside of SoS and Bloodsong I use, I really don't think there's much point in having one hero spec in Communing but I could be wrong. The thing is that if fights are short (and they will be when playing melee), MM's minions will reach the enemy when fight is pretty much over, and spirits will not be able to shoot enough to cause proper damage. This is just theory of course, but I really am starting to favor very mobile teams, especially since I tend to spend money on consumables.

As an Elementalist I don't ball foes in a few seconds. I actually don't ball foes much at all. I know enough about the AI so that I can ball melee foes quickly, and depending on terrain I can ball entire mobs, but more than that you're better off asking EFGJack. The techniques I use ensure that I survive and still kill fast; outside of Painful Bond and Death Nova the damage done by spiritway aren't dependent on balling. If you think it's slow we can compare times if you want.

As for Communing spirits with melee character, I'd say listen to kanuks (I have no experience with that situation).